The multiple "me" with Tulsi Menon – episode 9

Episode 9 summary

November 19, 2024 // 33 min, 52 sec

For decades, society has adapted itself to meet the needs of work. By 2050, it’s work that will have to adapt itself to the needs of society. Successful businesses will be those who understand this and reshape their offer to employees.​

In this episode:

Marissa is joined by anthropologist Dr. Tulsi Menon who uses ethnography to understand this changing contract between societies, work and individuals.​

• Our one-dimensional work identities are at odds with the complexity of who we really are.​
• How will we choose to contribute the skills of our more complex true identities in the future?​
• After 200 years of the same corporate hierarchies, what will these look like in a more democratic world of work?​
• How can employers respond and move from a narrow culture of acceptance to a culture of excellence?

Episode transcript

Marissa Geist 

Welcome to the Talent Time Machine, the podcast for talent leaders that takes you on a trip to the world of work in 2050. We're going to think about trends, possibilities, and new realities for talent.  

For many centuries, the needs of work have been shaped by society. However, younger generations aren't looking at work the same way their parents did. 

They're expecting more emotional engagement and a less one-dimensional relationship with their employer. And in the past decades, we've come to understand that people are multifaceted, and they're more than just the personality who shows up at work.  

So if this shift is all about how humans interact with one another, we thought it best to pull in someone who studies the very nature of human interaction. 

I'm Marissa Geist, and I'm joined by Dr. Tulsi Menon, a cultural and digital anthropologist who uses her work in ethnography to understand the growing divide between what employers offer and what people want from work.  

So thanks for being here. Really excited to have you. And I'm really excited to understand how your work in advertising linked up with your background in anthropology. 

How did you get into what you do? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

So it's a little of a long story, but the reason why I got into the business world was when I was studying anthropology in school and in college, we always tended to study these tribal cultures, these cultures that were very far removed from us. And I was very interested in what about the cultures that we interact with on a day to day basis? 

Because this is where multiple perspectives come to one space, multiple people, multiple cultures. So is there a way that we can study these cultures and help enhance it for the better, for a global perspective? 

Marissa Geist 

That is fascinating, right? Taking a microscope to people that you work with every day and kind of framing that from a different lens. And I know you've done a lot of work on understanding big societal changes, and particularly how they intersect with our expectations for work. I just want to take a minute to ask, what do you think society looks like in 2050, and how does that relate to work? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

So from an anthropological perspective, we tend to look at identity a lot. That's a lot of the work that we study and we do. And I think there are two large shifts that we'll hopefully see in 2050. And one is the concept of multiple identities. And that's the really deep acknowledgment that people have multiple identities. They're dynamic people. 

We have multifaceted desires, emotions, behaviors. And so in 2050, our identities will hopefully be a lot more complex with many selves in one. And we'll be looking at the work space to really cater to and help to build these identities in a way that really enables us to flourish. And I think the second aspect of where we'll be in 2050 is linked to the first, but is that people will be looking to explore their identities in the here and now. 

A lot of the times we hear people say, oh, I'll do this when I have time, or I'll do this when I retire. But I think as we become more accepting that we are multifaceted, it'll be about how do I enable this identity, how do I express this identity now? 

Marissa Geist 

And do you think all identities care about work, or is it now we're dealing with a subset of identities where your whole life isn't wrapped around work anymore? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think that's a great question. I don't think all identities will care about work, but I think work should care about all identities, if that makes sense. So work in a way has to create structures that says, hey, I understand you as a multifaceted person have many different strengths, many different strengths that you may not recognize will be helpful for work, but I'll help bring those strengths out into the work space. 

Marissa Geist 

Interesting. And I know that you've done a lot of work on the unspoken codes or the ways that people interact with each other, and I know that if we have this multifaceted way of living and working, some of the codes, some of the normalized exchanges between work and workers will change. So what do you see are the biggest codes of society that need to shift by 2050? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

Honestly, I think it's a linguistic change. There will be a lot of shifts in how we talk about workers. So right now when you create a job description, there's conversations about using the word resource, charge ability, even conversations about the glass ceiling. Those ways of how we're talking about employees kind of show us that their worth is quantifiable, that they have a certain measure or a certain standard that they need to live up to. 

And if they don't, they are not worthy of maybe even a promotion or getting the job. So I think that it has to be a huge linguistic shift into how we actually look at employees more from a human emotional angle, and take out that need for them to prove themselves in that quantifiable way. 

Marissa Geist 

That's really interesting. We're seeing a lot of companies talk about skills-based. Maybe that's the first shift away from here's a job description. It's like a 1 to 1 for person to job. And now saying here's a skills based need that we have yet to be much more open to a person that might have an adjacent expertise but can fit in. 

But we're still really, truly talking about one person, one job is that 1 to 1 handshake versus is it more that jobs don't exist? It's really here's some work that needs to be done. And here's a person, a part of a person that can do this work. And that's the engagement. It's much less linear. It's much less that 1 to 1 in 2050. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I love that you said that because I'm a huge proponent of moving away from linear progression. This idea that you have to be in one career for most of your life, or that you can't deviate from work. People might realize that, hey, I need some time to explore the creative part of my brain. I'm currently only working one part of my brain. 

And so I think organizations need to be able to enable that and allow people to say, go do what you need to do. If you come back, we'll find what strength you had when you were away, and we'll work with that. It doesn't have to be that 1 to 1 job. It may be no jobs, it may be shared knowledge through different forms now. 

Marissa Geist 

So that's like a sabbatical on steroids saying, you know, you need that break. You can't just work one part of your brain… it makes sense. If you think the average life expectancy is going up by 20 years from, you know, even a few decades ago. Work cannot be just this one linear march. It's not 15 years anymore or 20 years. We're talking about 50 or potentially 70 years in the workforce. 

And even that term, I guess, “in the workforce.” What does that really mean? Because you might say, I'm going to be a professional in the corporate world for ten years. And that was enough of that. And now I'm going to try the trades and you'll have time to explore multiple ways of working. It's not even linear. It's not even close to what we talk about like rotations in a single company. 

You're talking about whole different occupations. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

Yeah. I have a question for you on that though. While this is an ideal and I hope it's something we can live up to. Do you think employers will look at that gap in your CV and say, oh, well, they've gone and done X, Y, Z, or they've switched careers flippantly, probably not flippantly, that the person probably made a very conscious decision. 

How do you think employers would look at it at the start? 

Marissa Geist 

I think that's a really great observation. We have this bias. We've seen it that people have a bias for non-continuous work or non-linear work, that that signals like you said, flippancy or not dedication or even signals to this person of performance issues. And that's why their CV looks so sporadic. So certainly I think we're going to have some bias to overcome there, especially if the person who has the power to grant the job had a linear career. 

You like to value the same things that have made you successful. So I think not only is it going to take new policies, not only is it going to take new language, but it will certainly take… we have to value and kind of over promote some of this. And then when we have people that have benefited from that type of experience, come back and look at someone's CV, then it won't be a training. 

It'll just be a recognition of something they value in somebody else's CV. But that's not going to happen by accident. Or maybe it'll happen by force, because I think people are opting out of the workforce to do different things, and people are opting out to take care of elders or to have children in a way that they hadn't thought was possible before. 

So that forced flexibility might just create a cultural shift because more people are doing it and value it and come back, and then they come back and take leadership positions and say, hey, this is not a bad thing. I think personally, it's really interesting to me, looking at the talent that we need to find for large corporations around the world. 

A specific CV is impossible to match anymore. I mean, we can match. That's just like a diamond in the rough. Really. Having this conversation about shifting more to skills, it seems so revolutionary, but the way you're talking makes it sound like the baby first step in a very long process to really being more fluid, more open, more organic. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

It's exciting. 

Marissa Geist 

It is exciting, especially for people that have to think about a career of, can I work at a company for 45 or 50 years? That's just not a reality for the employer or the employee anymore. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

Yeah. 

Marissa Geist 

If that's what 2050 looks like, which I could buy into, if you're a company now, what are the things that you need to be thinking about? What are the new codes you need to explore? What are the new expertise that you need to bring into the building? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

So I think first, it's not even about looking externally saying, okay, these are the skills I need, but it's about restructuring your ecosystem, about changing the hierarchies, the models within which you’re creating your workforce. Because right now most people who are part of your workforce are those who fit into the norm. Right? So the people who are non-normative, let's say, or people who are choosing something different or have different identities, they're the ones who are going to have to adapt and fit into this structure. 

But I think it's the role and the goal of the employer to change the structure where the non-normative, the different identities, the differences are actually not weaknesses, but strengths. You create roles where those characteristics are actually strengths and therefore the structure changes. So we're not looking at the same traditional way of working at all. Everything has to be reimagined. 

Marissa Geist 

So not even saying that would be acceptable. We're saying that is preferred or even required to have some sort of multidisciplinary approach to be able to reach this level of leadership or to be able to take this level of responsibility. That's a really interesting thing to pull down right now is the whole shift in thinking of not just permissive, but really desired. 

And when you think about the bravery it would take an individual now… If you do have these multiple identities, I think that's a really interesting way to phrase it. Multiple identities as a younger person entering your career now, what would be the things that you would say that you should help power that in the workplace? What are the conversations you should be having as an individual? 

If you're saying you know what, I plan to actually do some of this work that looks nothing like the work I'm doing today, or I'd like to have a rotational career. Is that a conversation you think the workforce is ready for, or is that's something that's still bleeding edge? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I would love to say I think the workforce is ready for it. And I know that a lot of times people say we're looking for the eccentric. We want someone to think outside of the box. But I think the moment people deviate a little too much by saying, oh, I want a rotation or I only want to be available for six months, it's right now too far away from the structure. 

And I do think, therefore even the younger generation, right. They have so much agency right now, they're the most fluid with their identities. They had so many explorations. But when it comes to the workforce, they're still only bringing a few to the table because of this inherent fear that if I bring all of it or I bring parts of it, I will be rejected. 

Marissa Geist 

That's the shift, right? That's got to happen. And I think some of the leadership that we look at, that's always a challenge of people that need to lead, people that haven't had the same experience of them. So in 2050, how will leaders have had to change to be able to incorporate this into how they manage, how they hold people accountable, how they lead? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think it actually goes back to what you just said a few minutes ago about acceptance. I think it's a shift from leaders creating a culture of acceptance to creating a culture of excellence. And what I mean by that is, right now we're in the zone of leaders saying, hey, we accept certain identities, we accept your identities. But there are boundaries. 

The boundaries may be overt. There are some boundaries which are subliminal, but there are boundaries. But when leaders move towards the space of creating a culture of excellence, it’s that we're not only creating space for your identities, but we're enabling your identities to be at the forefront of change. So we're seeing… we realize those strengths. We realize you don't fit into normative structures. 

We realize the models may not work for you, so we will actually change them because we understand and value what you're bringing as people to this company. And so we are going to create that shift. So we're not only going to accept you, we're going to build you up and create an excellent person out of you. 

Marissa Geist 

So if a company does this right, they get access to additional strengths that are sitting already in their population that are hidden now because they're afraid to bring them to the forefront. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

Yeah! I absolutely agree with you. I just think people learn differently… the way people communicate, they communicate differently. And if we create one dimensional ways of learning, one dimensional ways of working, there's so many talented people that are by the wayside. So it's about creating ecosystems for the outliers instead of always being creating ecosystems for the mainstream, why not turn it on its head and see what happens then? 

Marissa Geist 

And do you think this is an imperative because of the demographics of who's coming into the workforce? Is it an imperative because those companies will perform better? Is it an imperative that, you know, we have to do this to futureproof companies, or is this just something that the best companies will do? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think it might be a mix of all, and I think that's probably a lot for companies to take on. I know it sounds really overwhelming, but I think it's a mixture of all what you've said. What do you think? 

Marissa Geist 

I think that as the population constricts and as we have less young people coming into the workforce, like you said, they have so much agency over their own identity. They have so much expectation, and they don't actually think work is going to be central to their singular identity the way that others did, that if you want to be a winning company and you'd like to attract the top talent, it's just going to look different. 

What I think is going to be one of the hardest things to do is let go of the hierarchies as well. You might have someone who is younger than you, who has not had the same experience, and you need to find a way to access those talents in a way that doesn't give up the hierarchy or bankrupt the hierarchy. 

But that's a really tough, yeah, ego-ridden road to go down. So how do you think about that showing up? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think the reason why we have hierarchies is because we are all ego-driven, right. That's kind of the nature of why hierarchies are there. But I don't necessarily think egos are inherently a bad thing. I think what needs to change with these hierarchies is the understanding that there needs to be a symbiotic relationship, so the employees tend to look at the employers or the management in this one way, in this one-dimensional way,  

They're not people. They're the ones who dictate. They're the ones who wield power. They only want people who look like them and who act like them, that they have a singular definition of who they are. The management has probably a definition of how the younger generation are that they feel they deserve too much. These might be stereotypes, these might be oversimplifications, but this is just an example of how egos get in the way of really looking at people as multi-dimensional. 

So as we're seeing the younger generation is multi-dimensional, the younger generation also has the responsibility of looking at the older generation or the management as multi-dimensional. And so it's both a bottom up and top down approach of where can we meet in the middle? What is our emotional value? How do we see each other as people and how can we build value together? 

Egos will be there, there will always be egos. But how can we kind of have a shared sense of ego. 

Marissa Geist 

The expectation and the norms around what we give and get at work that comes into play, into what you just said. I did see an example of a younger generation being asked to do 90-minute task to prove that they could do the work for free, in terms of being able to get the job. They said, “I declined that, that would be paid work.” 

And so I think, like you said, the less motivated or the older generation will look down and say, well, of course that's just a skills based assessment, and the younger generation’s expectation is, if I'm doing work for you, you're going to pay me. So I think that's a gap in expectation and understanding where the old ways of working already are not working. 

And I think about some of the more emerging high growth markets like India. And I know you've done a lot of work in India, and certainly ego hierarchy is present everywhere in the world. But sometimes as we build new or have a new structure come into place, you get an opportunity to leave some of those things and not even build them in to undo that, in terms of hierarchy.  

So are you seeing a different way that people are engaging in the newer hierarchies in India, or are you seeing the same type of 200 year old corporate structures coming in? What are you seeing in that market? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

So it's interesting, I think there are different conversations that need to be had before this multi identity conversation is really embedded. And there are three things. One is women in the workforce. Women in the workforce in India and Southeast Asia, more so than the rest of the world, have this duality of identities where there's a significant increase of women in the workforce, they are managing roles, they're doing incredibly well, but they still have to manage the home, with their mums or if they're married. 

So they have two full time jobs. Now, what happens here is that there's an overburden. So they want to explore their duality of identities. But they're also overburdened by it. And a lot of the times the structures of the traditional structures of the family structure doesn't enable them to explore other identities. So in a way, they are overburdened with these two identities, but they also want to see what else is available. 

And I think here is where is the role of the employer to provide unconventional spaces for them to explore who they are outside of these dual roles, because right now the dual roles seem really set in stone for them. They need agency to see that there's a lot more. 

Marissa Geist 

That's interesting. I think as women come up in the workforce in the US, particularly Western Europe and the Western societies, we were told we could be working mothers and have it all, but that meant that we just did it all. You can have it all if you take on literally all of the work, and your husband or your support partner would just continue the way they were working and you just had to grab more. So you had two full time jobs.  

I'm hoping by 2050 we will have abandoned some of those structures or moved well past them, because it's definitely untenable. I say that out of experience too, with just, you know, being a working woman in a world where I came into the expectation of that. I think as companies explore what this looks like, your definition of unconventional spaces is a good one to explore. 

When I think about people being productive at work or how we view productivity at work, a lot of it is hours worked on the job that you are given in the moment, and that burns people out, and then people are opting out of the workforce because they, like you said, are exhausted or overburdened. If we think about the fact that we need to take care of multiple personalities, providing space could actually be giving people time off just to relax, or to be able to think, or to be able to be creative or to be able to read. 

And that is productive, but not in a way that modern traditional productivity would define that work. But it's probably necessary in 2050 and probably demanded by the workforce that says work's going to fit into my life. Gen Alpha's not thinking that work will be life. Work is a part of one of those personalities or multiple parts of those different personalities, but definitely not the definition of who they are. 

So it's fascinating, really challenges that whole productivity... What does real work time mean? It's not just a task. It's taking care of all of those identities. So I think if we think about people that are building structures for future, my favorite example is how the Chinese telecom did not ever get voicemail, which I hate voicemails. If I could turn the voicemail off on my phone, I would. 

But somehow I've never figured out how to get the phone company just to not… who leaves a voicemail? Just text me or email me or call me. But what is the purpose of it? But it's still sitting on my phone. But in China, they saw no purpose of it because they'd already had text. 

So we think about that. That's kind of how I think about these structures in 2050. Don't subscribe to something that you're just going to have to undo. So if you're building new, already build in having time for multiple personalities, already build time and for having time to take care of the whole self and structures that encourage balance outside of work as well. 

I think that's the other thing that we've had public policy try and failed to create equality outside the home. We haven't seen that. So I feel that corporations coming into the workspace need to be a better advocate for that. And they're the ones that can find the space and the time to make that happen. Are you seeing any of that in the work that you're doing? 

People really considering that question of equality when it comes to this? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

Yes. But also specifically with India, I think there are two areas that make it a little unique compared to other parts of the world, and one is our sheer population. Right? So if you are unwilling to fit into the norm, you will always had someone else ready to take that role. So there is a real fear that you have these hidden identities and people are talking about it… that cultural conversation, people are talking about it when you have your watercooler moment, or for us, it’s a chai moment when you have your tea at 4 p.m., people are talking about it.  

But they're still unwilling to really enforce it because they know that someone else could potentially take their role. And so there's that inherent fear. And I think the second, I think this might be interesting from a Cielo point of view, but when people are hired in India, I don't know if you know about this, but it's a common practice at interviews to answer questions about your salary. 

So you actually show people your pay slips, you give them your salary, and that determines whether you get a second round interview, that determines what you might get for the job if you do get it. So your value is really tied into a monetary aspect. And because of that, people again are so unwilling to move away from the convention, change jobs. 

Because if I don't have that previous experience, you're not gonna look at me in the way that I want to be viewed, or I'm not going to get the role that I want. So I think those large structural cultural changes need to happen. And I think that's where employers come in. When they pave the way, they're the ones who say, hey, we're looking at you differently. 

We speak differently. We address your multiple identities. We accept that you are multiple people. They are the ones who I think lead the change in a country like India. You have to lead by example. 

Marissa Geist 

And that putting a value on the multiple identities outside of a lateral. We've seen success for companies that have opened a skill-based conversation versus just a resume or CV based conversation. In fact, we've seen that too at Cielo, as we've recruited recruiters, people that have, for example, had to manage gym memberships or hotel hospitality, people that are very customer service centric, but also have that ability to convince people to join or move.  

Those are not traditional paths that you'd look at. They didn't get a degree in human resources, typically, but we've seen that those folks can be very successful in our organization because it's the same skill set and we value them. And you're not penalized because you didn't take the traditional route into our company. 

And I think that's what you're talking about is how are the ways that your current structures require them to come in the same door that all the past people came in? And you value that through a pay slip, that radical transparency and that that sort of every step reinforces that you have to do things the way things were always done. 

So I think that's really interesting to say. The employer can affect that right away. It'll be here in 2050, but you can get the best talent, get really good at this now if you look at all the ways that you can sort of break apart what you do, that don't reinforce a more open discussion about multiple identities.  

And in the workforce, once somebody gets in your door, we're talking about lateral a lot of times where people say, okay, I want the next promotion, the next promotion, very planful that's actually not great experience. 

And as a leader, you want to see multiple parts of the business, even experiences outside work come into play. We certainly have seen people explore learning, skills-based promotions, but we haven't really seen this multiple identity exploration at work. How are you seeing companies support that, or how would you recommend people start now to promote and support multiple identities at work? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

So I think we're seeing spaces where, for example, diversity and inclusion is a big part of companies’ ethos now. And you see a lot of the young people taking charge and becoming leaders in that space because that's something that's a part of their identity, and that's something they want to bring to the workforce. What the gap I see is that they are not paid for it, or they're not given the tools required. 

So a lot of the time, these are ad hoc benefits that you're seeing. I see your identity, here is a small benefit so you can explore it, but they're not giving real room to grow or real room to make big changes. So it might be an assembly conversation, but then nothing happens beyond that. So I think it's about saying that we give you the tools to actually have an embodied experience of this identity. 

So come to us with ideas. I don't think the employers will always be the ones who have all of the options available for you. You as the employee, also have to really take initiative and say, hey, this is part of me. This is what I'm really interested in. Can we create a model? Can we create a structure? Can we create a process that will help the company? 

And I think that's the dialogue. 

Marissa Geist 

And so just taking a cynical point of view for a second to say, I run a business. We're always in limited resources. We're always trying to prioritize what's happening. We don't have unlimited funding. Why should I consider something like this instead of saying, you know what, this isn't the time or the place. We don't have the energy opportunity. 

What's the repercussion of not considering or not getting started now on this journey? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think the repercussion is not looking at your people, therefore, as humans. And I'm not saying every person who comes through the door saying, I have this idea, I want you to support it. It's never going to happen. But I think by really saying I'm understanding your lived experience, and I'm going to try and see how I can help you. Whether that's opening a door for you, whether that's potentially helping you through social media, whatever it is. 

But showing that I'm a support system for you, but you lead the charge. 

Marissa Geist 

What we've seen is, you know, as times got tougher, ESG initiatives went by the wayside. People going back to the basics, you know, it was sort of get this regression after an expansive growth period and things that are newer or things that seem less tied to income or productivity get pushed aside a bit. And the danger of that is now we just hit reset and you lose five years or ten years, and so are the companies that push it aside going to be behind? 

Are they going to be losers in the talent of war, or is it not really a repercussion of not doing it? Like you could still keep on. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think it's that question of do you, as a company, want to lead the cultural change, or do you want to be a part of a cultural movement? So do you want to respond to culture? So whenever something happens in culture, you suddenly respond to it. Or do you actually want to be at the forefront of changing the culture? 

And I don't think all companies will want to be at the forefront of changing culture. And you can't. But I think that mindset therefore says that we can't have just ad hoc benefits or we can't have ad hoc systems in place, but it's actually embedded into our system. So that enables the agile working when we have different types of people coming through the door, our structures are in place that give people room to grow, and therefore we're not always responding to what's happening outside, but we’re actually, I like to say, and I think this is because I'm an anthropologist. I think it's really important for every company to do an ethnography on themselves, which is really just taking a stock of, okay, who are we really? Who are we in relation to the larger culture? What are the interactions between management, between employees? How can we build for a better community.  

And I think when employees see you try, that actually goes a long way because it's about intention as well as action. But intention is super important. 

Marissa Geist 

And that I think we've seen resonate through many of these culturally charged conversations, is authenticity and transparency. Just like you said, not every company is going to be leading a cultural change. So if you're not one of those companies that’s leading a cultural change, just facing into that to say we're responsive, we're agile, we want to be inclusive, but we're not the ones out there changing the way the world works. 

So if you say that but don't do it, people tend to not respond well to that lack of integration between what's stated and what's done. And so before we end, I want to just ask you a few quickfire questions along the same line. So just off the top of your head, we often see younger people feel freer to explore like we talked about, their are different identities. But what about older people in the workforce, people that didn't enter with that expectation? What do you see for them? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think it's actually equally important to focus on them, because while the younger population has that agency that we talked about have more tools, have more conversations, the older generation hasn't. It's not a one size fits all approach. So what works for the younger generation will not work for the older generation, and we have to really authentically understand what are their values, what are their habits, who are they and where do they want to be, and how could we take them on the journey? 

Because I think for them it's about how do we speak the language and it's taking them on the journey rather than demanding change from them, because then you're not going to get people who actually want to be a part of this change. You have to authentically understand what is that cultural context, and how can we help them build out these identities? 

Because I think the older generation, you see it happen a lot with parents and kids right now, a lot of the parents are talking about how they wish they had the agency that their kids have to think differently, to not go in the linear progression that they had to because they had no choice. So I think it's about giving them the space to explore, but in their own way. 

Marissa Geist 

So it's 2050. Have the hierarchies that have been presided over by the ego-driven bosses been replaced with a more democratic workplace? What is this look like? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

I think we'll always have some form of hierarchies; that is just the nature of society. But the implication of the hierarchies, the look of a hierarchy, the implication on what will have on people. I think that'll change. Like I said in the beginning, I think ego is not a bad thing, but it's a bad thing when it's held in power by one or a few people. 

If there's a shared sense of ego towards a shared goal which is communally decided, the hierarchies actually help you get there. 

Marissa Geist 

Got it. And last one, we've seen a huge rise in number in the ways that we define ourselves. Gender, sexuality. What do you think the next big dimension of identity that will benefit from a more lateral expression will be? 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

So I think when it comes to identity narratives, they need to inherently be more intersectional. It's not about one dimension or the other, but it's really the interrelation of them and who we are at the center and our interaction with all of that. And one aspect I think that is important to explore as a result of this intersectionality is our multi-cultural identity. 

Who are we in relation to other people within our society? Outside of our society? How do we learn their perspectives? How do we share our experiences? As AI and digital are really disseminating boundaries, the multicultural identity to relate to people halfway across the world is really important. How do we find those values, those shared sense of being, and how do we communicate with each other? 

I think those aspects of identity are important. 

Marissa Geist 

That is fascinating. As we democratize access to work, to jobs, we'll be working with people that have a totally different background than we do, and that intersection could provide friction, or it could provide a different, more expansive way of thinking. So that's really interesting. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

Yeah, exactly. Because I think it's a lot of times when we talk identity, a lot of us have a privileged perspective on it. But we have to unlearn that when we're speaking with people from different walks of life and realize their perspective of identity may not be as privileged as us. And so how do we learn from them and how do we share with them? 

Marissa Geist 

So if I think about just what I've taken away from the conversation, so thank you for coming today. What I've taken away from the conversation is in 2050, we'll have these multiple identities sitting resident at work, because the culture will have just moved on from a moment that we're in right now. And the best organizations recognize if they're leading that way, if they're participating in that way, but certainly have taken a hard look at ways now that exclude multiple identities in the workforce and started to structure things in a more inclusive way.  

And, as you predicted, tells me we'll have less hierarchies, more shared ego, shared experience, and the best companies will have that sense of purpose and the structures that encourage multiple identities at work. So thank you. I really appreciated the conversation today and it's been really insightful. Thanks for joining. 

Dr. Tulsi Menon 

Thanks for having me. This has been really interesting. 

Marissa Geist 

Join me next time on the trip to work 2050 in The Talent Time Machine.  

To catch the next episode or hear from my previous guests, be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform.  

This episode was edited by Emily Kaysinger and produced by Dusty Weis at Podcamp Media... with the support of Sarah Smelik, John McCarron and Laura Pykett of Heavenly and the team at Cielo of Sally Hunter, Annamarie Andrews and Susie Schuppel-Paul.  

For Cielo, thanks for listening... I'm Marissa Geist.